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About me: I'm a queer-identified bisexual femme submissive with occasional mad scientist switch tendencies. I'm currently exploring non-sexual service and am about to enter into a contractual relationship as a housegirl for a woman I met several months ago. Every week she gives me written assignments and for this week's task I need a bit of help.
The assignment was to find two or more female identified submissives who might be willing to share how they've reconciled their kink with their feminism. [and I realize that feminism is a very loaded term for many people- including women of color, transfolk, and sexworkers- so if you don't identify as "feminist" but still have thoughts on reconciling kink with your political ideals please feel free to speak up]
For myself, I'm still trying to figure things out. I don't think my submissiveness [nor my involvment with sexwork for that matter] goes against my political ideals [i lean toward the marxist-feminist side of things]. However, some of the more popular arguments I see tend to rub me the wrong way- mainly the "choice" argument. [as long as you're making an informed choice, it's feminist] Maybe it's the academic wannabe in me, but that just doesn't seem like a strong argument to me.* So far, I've dealt with my political worries by asking myself, "Does everything I do have to exemplify my political ideals?" And for me, the answer to that is no. Not everything needs to make a statement- some things are done out of necessity of even just to be happy. I'm happiest when able to experience submission on a regular basis. By making sure I get this emotional need met, I'm able to function better in regular life and therefore be more effective when I do political work. My submission isn't evidence of the fact that I'm weak; it's just another variance on human sexuality and relationships. [Gee, I really need to read this when I'm sitting in bed late at night obsessing over the phrase, "dominant in the streets, submissive in the sheets" and how that totally doesn't apply to my shy, squeaky-ass self]
Anyways, those are my thoughts for now. Anyone else care to share?
Edit: I should also say, I'm not opposed to the choice argument on a personal level. Obviously choice and personal agency is very important and I don't want to negate that. It's just that I have this incredibly masochistic habit of reading radical feminist blogs that attack bdsm so fiercely and sometimes it seems that the case for personal choice is a weak argument compared to the more academic arguments I see. I hope that makes more sense.
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*I suppose I also bristle at the word "choice" because it makes me think of the reproductive rights movement, which has focused on the right to abortion in a manner that neglects other reproductive issues like childbirth and forced sterilization, and often ignores intersectionality.
August 8 2008, 04:42:35 UTC 3 years ago
And you're right - just because something's an informed choice, that doesn't make it a feminist choice. However, it isn't necessarily unfeminist either. I think BDSM is one of those neither-one-nor-the-other things, ultimately depending on how the individuals involved interpret it. For me, BDSM is an expression of my feminism because it has helped me be more conscious of the ideas of consent, power, and agency. For the douchebag dom who thinks all women should be his willing sex slaves, BDSM is decidedly anti-feminist, just as he is.
August 9 2008, 16:50:44 UTC 3 years ago
I really like what you said here about BDSM being an expression of your feminism because it has helped you be more conscious of things. While I don't think bdsm is necessarily liberating to women on a grand scale, it has been extremely empowering to me on a personal level and I've been able to use things I've learned from kinky experiences in my activist life. I hope that makes sense- sometimes I come off extremely convoluted when writing no matter how hard I try so I'm not sure if the original post necessarily made I points I meant it to.
August 8 2008, 05:10:00 UTC 3 years ago
The first is the choice argument. I dont feel pressured into submitting, I do it becuase I enjoy it, my partner enjoys it, and its not about submitting to the patriarchy.
The second is more of the stay the fuck out of my business argument. Who the hell cares what my and my partner(s) do in our relationship? No one goes around asking people "do you both have the same number of orgasms? Is she on top enough, or are you boring with your sexual positions? Do you feel sexually satisfied in your relationship?" It never gets asked about in "normal" society, it never gets discussed. So, why does, all of a sudden, the fact that Oh, I like kinky sex and it gets me off belong in any conversations? What I do in the privacy of my own home, with my partners and friends, is no one elses business except those in that circle.
August 9 2008, 17:09:34 UTC 3 years ago
First of all, thank-you for your response. It's really nice to see so many thoughtful answers. I reread my post and wanted to mention that it's not that I'm against the choice argument or any sort of variant on that. I've been reconciled with my kink pretty much since I discovered it and choice plays a major part in that. The problem I've had is being vocally judged by people [friends and lovers that were radical feminists] who have a political problem with my sexuality. Needless to say, I dropped them pretty quickly. I suppose I would be a lot less stressed if I could just learn to stop obsessing when yet another person called me an unhealthy freak but I'm not quite sure how to do that yet.
August 8 2008, 05:29:25 UTC 3 years ago
This also goes along with the dilemma of wether or not a housewife can be a feminist. I say she can, because she is expressing what she wants to do with her life. She does not submit to the pressure of what others say she should be as a woman, just as the businesswoman does when she is told that women should remain in the home. I do the same thing. Just because I like to be dominated in bed does not mean that I am submitting to any idea of what I should be as a woman. I do it because I like it.
Also, one question, if a man is submissive, does that make him feminist? And if a woman is dominant, does that automatically make her more feminist than me?
You have an interesting sounding paper. Have fun writing it. Hope it all goes well. <3
August 9 2008, 18:18:15 UTC 3 years ago
August 8 2008, 06:20:25 UTC 3 years ago
Personally I feel much the same way about the BDSM establishments that I've been exposed to that you seem to feel about various feminist establishments. I love the practice and large segements of the philosophy, but whenever I try to be part of the "community" there's always some jackass needing to be the One True Way. The same way there's a difference between the BDSM agenda of *some* and the genuine core of BDSM...that thing in our collective gut that makes it such a big deal, there's a big difference between feminism as a political movement and feminism as the burning imperative of the human soul to be judged on one's own merits rather than by some cookie-cutter standard. The same can be said of choice vs. Choice.
I'm happy to have an intellectual discussion about this, but if it's going to actually BE intellectual, you have to agree to unload your terms a little so we're not all primed up for emotional drama.:) When I say "feminism" I refer only to the radical idea that women are human beings. When I say "choice" I refer to the word on its cosmic scale...the right to say no, the right to say yes, the right to pick creamy over smooth and not have to explain yourself to anyone for it.
Sound reasonable to you?
August 8 2008, 06:58:13 UTC 3 years ago
mmm-hmmm.
i feel really fortunate to have found a local group of players that is mostly free of that.
August 8 2008, 12:49:30 UTC 3 years ago
"When I say "feminism" I refer only to the radical idea that women are human beings. When I say "choice" I refer to the word on its cosmic scale...the right to say no, the right to say yes, the right to pick creamy over smooth and not have to explain yourself to anyone for it."
Oh. My. Ganesh.
THANK you for saying this so succinctly!
August 8 2008, 17:22:43 UTC 3 years ago
August 8 2008, 17:29:39 UTC 3 years ago
August 13 2008, 06:18:47 UTC 3 years ago
"right to say no, right to say yes" first came up in a conversation with a friend, but I don't know it was original to her. Again, it's said a lot of places, and my google-fu isn't terribly great tonight.:)
But yeah, not all mine.
August 9 2008, 18:29:13 UTC 3 years ago
Your terms sound very reasonable to me- I hope I didn't come as the "right" kind of feminist, whereas everyone who doesn't agree with me is obviously misled. I have some strong opinions but I never want to give off the vibe that I'm shutting the opinions of others out. Hopefully my unintentionally long-winded post didn't turn you off too much. :)
August 13 2008, 05:53:13 UTC 3 years ago
August 8 2008, 07:18:08 UTC 3 years ago
i was married for 11 years, a housewife and mother. we were rather D/s but not in any sort of acknowledged or conscious way. after we divorced, i convinced myself that i never wanted to be submissive in a relationship again. it took me several years to be able to admit that i needed to seek out healthy submission. and yet i insisted that i only wanted to be submissive in the context of a defined scene, never in the context of my relationships. i was very autonomous about my relationships, being polyamorous with no hierarchies, making my own choices. that went on for a couple more years, and i have only recently entered into a 24/7 D/s relationship with a transman who's been one of my lovers for the past couple of years. i am finding myself once again fulfilled serving, being essentially a housewife.
i do not feel at all conflicted about my submission as it intersects my political ideals...but i am having a hard time explaining to the members of my collective and other feminist and anarchist friends. i look forward to reading more responses to this thread, and may contribute more tomorrow when i'm more awake. :)
August 8 2008, 07:42:07 UTC 3 years ago
August 8 2008, 16:08:28 UTC 3 years ago
For me, it's "I'm only submissive when it comes to my partner" rather than sex, and that's been a little trickier for me to figure out. I totally dig that women are people (yay! I'm a people!) but some elements of more lifestyle-y BDSM take little bits out of my personhood from time to time and it's something I've grappled with; things like TPE take a lot out of personhood in certain ways and I can see how that's weird. My politics say that the right and recognition of personhood isn't complete unless you're free to use that personhood as you see fit, even if other people consider that use a "waste." Some people think doing drugs is a waste, some people think TPE is a waste, some people think taking classes in women's studies is a waste; that's their problem, not mine.
Of course, there's a value judgement there, that doing those things "wastefully" (I wish I had a word I felt less icky typing) doesn't harm others. Some would say that it does: "Your gay marriage harms my marriage" --- and ultimately the value of "do no harm" has to come into conflict with "do what you consider valuable." I think it's easy enough to agree that having a stabbing strangers fetish does harm, and really enjoying eating apples in your house with the blinds drawn does no harm. But there is a lot of fuzz in between, and for people who consider individuals to have responsibilities to society, there can be a real values conflict here.
...and that was probably enough text :)
August 8 2008, 08:30:44 UTC 3 years ago
August 8 2008, 13:25:58 UTC 3 years ago
oh and i'm a big leather freak, an live in a 24/7 leather dynamic! :) i got to have LOTS of conversations about this when i was an undergrad explaining myperspectives and experience etc.
my email is: sassafras@pomofreakshow.com
August 9 2008, 18:32:04 UTC 3 years ago
August 8 2008, 15:44:38 UTC 3 years ago
This may just be a variant on the choice argument, in which case feel free to disregard.
In my opinion, feminism should be all about reaching parity. I actually dislike the term 'feminism', because it implies a desire for something special, rather than a desire for actual equality. This means that feminism (rightly) involves challenging a lot of cultural (frequently patriarchal) norms that are getting in the way of this goal.
However, this goal absolutely does not give anyone the right to impose a new, arbitrary set of cultural norms on anyone. That's like rebelling by doing exactly the things you aren't supposed to. You end up following just as strict a template. Society is still in control of you. It's an immature reaction. So for a feminist to tell a woman "you must always take control" is just as bad as for a chauvinist to say "back in the kitchen, woman!".
Anonymous
August 9 2008, 16:21:56 UTC 3 years ago
reconciling kink and feminism/politics
Dear findingthegirl,Check out
http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/08/choice-f
Good luck!
Sublime Femme
August 13 2008, 06:13:52 UTC 3 years ago
My reconciliation between the lifestyle and my convictions doesn't come from the standpoint of choice, oddly enough. It started out as that when I didn't know anything other than that I wanted it and some people thought it was wrong, because when you don't know ANYTHING the leap in the dark is all you have, but I doubt that would have sustained me. I know some people can get off on a thing just because it's countercultural or "freaky" or somehow "sticks it" to whatever "the man" lives in their heads and watches them fuck, but to me, that's always a big hurdle. Without a strong base of self-awareness, I utterly crumble in the face of disapproval, so I can't reconcile my sexuality based on choice alone.
For me, it comes down to a thing similar to the way I reconcile just BEING a woman in a society that devalues women, where various forms of dominant rhetoric enforce the idea that a vagina is a deletion of genetalia...that a man without a penis is a woman. To be happy and confident as a woman, I have to recognize my vagina as an actual quantity in itself, rather than minus-a-cock. I have to recognize that my gender identity in all its dimensions is a quantity unto itself rather than a variaton of anything else. I can respect and honor myself as a woman and a bisexual even though neither of those thing were ever a matter of choice for me.
The same goes for being a submissive. Admittedly, I am more exactly a switch that skews submissive heavily, but, y'know, whatever. I feel no conflict between submission and feminism because submission is not merely a lack of dominance, and dominance is not a superior or more-prime virtue. It is simply a difference, and one with a unique value. Like masculine and feminine are counterparts rather than opposites, dominance and submission are counterparts. They enhance rather than negate each other. A submissive is NOT a neutered dominant. Submission is every bit as much an active skill and a social power as dominance. Good submissives know their value, and good Dominants recognize and respect that.
I am not a submissive by choice, but I do submit by choice.
August 19 2008, 21:42:11 UTC 3 years ago
August 20 2008, 05:22:26 UTC 3 years ago
[and again, I'm sorry for the long delay between replies- I'm not avoiding, things have just been rather chaotic.]